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Rohit M
added comment inDraw Any Pose From Any Angle - Rhythms
5d
Great lesson! More of this please!!
Two questions I had was on concave vs convex shapes: (1) Mike, in his lessons on shapes, relates convex to positive and concave to negative shapes which I did not fully understand. How does convex and concave shape usually work or are used in rythm and shape design? (2) I noticed that Stan was sometimes putting two almost parallel curves to denote hands or even legs below the knee, but there was enough variation that it looked good. But when I try, arms start to look like a flat ribbon curving: Eg - ( ( not sure what the secret sauce is here?
Also, on a side note (not to the topic) - I think the video editors on Proko team love Stan tearing away the paper :P - they showed every shot of Stan removing the paper when he moved to the next drawing...haha
Steven Wolf
5d
It would help if you showed us what you mean. For question 2 show a picture of you trying to do that and it coming out like a flat ribbon. Also take a screen shot of the part where Stan has done the almost parallel thing in a way that looks good to you. That way we will know what you are trying to do and what you may be doing wrong.
7d
I'm struggling a lot with rhythms for stretched limbs where it's a series of subtle bumps but no very discernible bend. A flowing curved line completely obliterates any semblance of the object itself while addingany detail ruins the flow. How would you guys deal with this arm and this leg here? One curve? Two? Straight lines?
6d
I think you are looking too much at the lines of the contours. It’s easy to confuse the various bumps with the overall rhythm of the limbs. But what we want to be looking at is the overall impression that looking at the limb as a whole leaves us with.
I think that the arm is in a perfect position for a nice curve, on the bottom, that starts at the torso and moves through the forearm. I would not focus on trying to capture the triceps in that first rhythm line. Instead I would do one long curve down the whole arm, and then later add the extra bump on the triceps if you are adding more details. It will help you capture the true impression of the rhythm without loosing it in the details. I think on the top part I would do more of a straight that tappers down from the shoulder to the wrist. After that I would add detail over it by making a short curve for the top of the deltoids, and one for the top of the forearm. There are other ways to handle it, but this is a way that will help keep things from getting off of the main rhythm or looking disjointed. It’s so much easier for your mind to work on one thing at a time, especially when you are learning. Start simple and add complexity on top.
For that leg I would do the curve on the outside of the upper leg, and stop at the knee. That would be one thought. Every line should be a thought. I would make a small slight curve for the inside of the knee, then make an outside curve from the knee to the foot. For the inside of the upper leg I would make that a straight to the knee. Then I would do another straight on the inside of the lower leg from the knee tapering down to the foot.
Also a line doesn’t have to be completely straight to be considered a straight. It just has to have a mostly straight feel. Also if you have a small curve on half or less of the line we call a “straight,” and the rest of that line is straight, if it is opposite a longer curve line then it will still read as a straight. Because it is more straight than the opposite line it will feel straight by contrast. If that makes sense.
Anyway, that’s just how I see it. I’m still just learning as well. There are other ways of doing it and thinking about it.
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Please don’t apologies for the size of this wonderful lesson. It was a great lesson! It actually felt really condensed, like you used the time to say what you most needed to, and nothing else. It felt like it went by fast to me. I would have been fine with this video being twice as long. I always appreciate lessons being as informative, and clear, as they can be, and if that makes them longer, then that’s fine with me. Actually, when I saw the size of the video, I got excited because I knew it was going to have a lot of good information in it.
1mo
I wound suggest not thinking of the pelvis as being on a twist in this image. Instead it might be helpful to think of the pelvis sitting in place, the same as it always does, but in this image it’s in a slighting three fourths position, and we are looking down at it. So just draw that as you normally would if there was no twist. As far as for the rib cage that is twisted from the pelvis a bit. A good thing to take note, is that the model here is not actually twisting, in the rib cage, as much as it first appears. The shoulder blade, of her right arm, is being pushed back and out, which makes it appear that there is more twist to the rib cage than there actually is. But if you look at the indications of her spine, you can see that the twist isn’t that major. You can see that the spine is really just twisting in between the pelvis and the rib cage, to connect those two different positions.
Remember both the rib cage and the pelvis are in fixed positions, meaning they don’t themselves really deform much. The spine, the Thoracic part, is connected to the rib cage in a fixed way. When the Thoracic rotates, the rib cage is coming along for the ride. So if you understand where the spin is, that should help explain what the rib cage is doing.
Just remember that, in this image, the rib cage is in a three fourths view, which means you are not just looking straight at the back of the spine, which means you are going to also see it’s natural curve, that you can always see from the side view. Don’t get that confused with the twist.
In this image the model’s pelvis is slightly turning away from us to the right, and I feel the rib cage is slightly moving away from us to the left. So think of them as both being in static positions in separate three fourths view, and then attach the two using the Lumbar part of the spine. Maybe look at pictures of the rib cage in a three fourths back view to help you understand.
I hope that helps, and that I didn’t say anything incorrect. That is just the best I could come up with from looking at the image. I am still learning too.
I thought you hadn’t received any comments yet, but just saw that you have. Oh well, maybe this will still be helpful.
1mo
Thank you Stan! This was just an awesome demo! It has really helped make things a little clearer to me, I look forward to making another attempt at the assignment, and see if I can better apply these concepts. You really did a great job of explaining these concepts and showing us how to apply them. I think it helps a lot when you tell, and show us, how not to do, and think, about it, and then tell and show us the right way. It helps things click because there is less room for ambiguity and misunderstanding. I appreciate the effort you are taking in trying to understand how we might be misinterpreting something, beforehand, that you are trying to teach us, and adding the extra clarification to it. This is a great course! I just wish it had been around years ago, but I’m very glad that it’s here now.
1mo
Asked for help
This was a fun assignment. I feel like I get the concept, but in practice it’s more difficult. It is hard to keep the whole picture in mind. There are a lot of different things to distract my brain away from thinking about what is the best shape language while drawing such as proportion and angles. I had hoped to get more done by now. I had to spend most of my time warming up, because it has been awhile since I have drawn much, just resting my inured shoulder. It’s crazy how rusty you can get. I didn’t warm up yesterday and felt that I just couldn’t draw at all when I was working on this assignment. But today I spent a lot of time warming up and at the end my lines started to behave more, and I had a much better time of it. I will try and get a few more done if I can. I want to keep working on this.
1mo
I was able to get another couple done. This is very challenging. When I see other people do it well, I feel that I understand what they did and why it works, all very well, as well as why others don’t work. I have ideas in my mind of things that I want to do with the shapes that seem clear enough in my head, but then I struggle to achieve those envisioned results. I think some of it is that a part of me resists pushing shapes and wants to keep things closer to the image. I also just need a lot more practice with this. It’s very interesting to work this way. In some ways there is more complexity in simplicity.
3mo
Asked for help
2023/7/12. good morning everybody. Here's my latest assignment for @Patrick Jones course "The Anatomy of Style". Thanks for your comment or critique.
3mo
This is a very nice study. You have done a lot of things well with it. When I first looked at it I thought wow. Looking at it closer I see some places for improvement.
1. The place I circled for the shoulder feels off because you have that line that is heading to the chest the same darkness as the arm outline, which makes it feel like the arm has another joint in it and that it is connecting the arm more to the chest. It makes that part feel detached from the body instead of just indications of things that are going on more subtly under the skin. If you will notice Patrick handles the extension of that line with a softer value that serves to show a softer change in form. I would suggest either doing the same, or just stopping the line altogether much sooner.
2. Here the leg is pinched in more strongly than looks natural. It starts out wider and then suddenly pinches in. Notice Patrick didn’t do that. His changes are very subtle and flow into each other. I think part of what happened in your case was that you got the angle of the bottom of the leg coming from the butt right, except for the sharp pinch that you added, but the top of the leg, bottom circle, you have it angled sloping up the page instead of slightly sloping down the page. Which doesn’t just move the leg a bit, but instead serves to make the over all upper leg thinner. Patrick has more of an S curve that is moving from the start of the leg there to a point that is slightly lower on the page. His leg feels a bit thicker and doesn’t have a sudden pinch, which makes it feel more natural, and pleasant to look at. The subtlety that he is using is difficult. Our mind wants to make it more than it is.
3. The knee has some issues with it’s angles, which makes it feel connected oddly to the upper leg. Remember the upper part of the knee is still part of the upper leg and should be attached pretty straight to the rest of the upper leg, like a box at the end of the leg. It doesn’t shift directions from the rest of the upper leg if you think of it as a cylinder. The back is also not defined enough to completely tell if it’s attaching well, but what you have looks like a sharp change instead of a curve.
4. The lower leg looks too thin from the upper leg. It looks emaciated, and how you have chosen to shadow it also makes it look like there is a very defined bone in it that is really popping out. Patrick drew the lower leg thicker, and was softer with his shadows. Even though he was kind of trailing the drawing off there to where it became more of an indication at the end, I could still feel the volume and structure of the leg very well.
5. Your ear seems a bit small to me. It also seems a bit pushed back from the jaw. But Patrick’s looks a bit pushed back as well, so maybe there is something I don’t understand about that.
6. This is a very small thing, but you have the Adam’s apple a bit more pointy than what Patrick did. His was more of a flattened bump, and I think that looks nicer.
7. I know that he is indicating the far butt cheek in his, but it’s also so faint it makes me wonder if he was trying to hide that because he decided against it. The reason I say that is because, in this perspective, I feel like we wouldn’t be able to see it. Then again, it might have been artistic license. Anyway it doesn’t look right to me, both in his and yours.
I hesitate to add this, but I feel like the scratchy shading that you have in some of the places detracts from your drawing. It feels like you put more time into the face and neck and that part looks great. I feel like maybe you were rushing with some of the other shading lines. Like on the shoulder, back, and upper front of the leg. That upper front of the leg shading is the part that stand out the most to me because it is so much thinner than the other scratchy lines making it feel out of place, as it is only there. Looks like a different style. Maybe you used a thinner pencil, or one just sharpened for that part.
Where you trying to do this in a set time? Or just drawing it until it felt done?
This is the best feedback that I can give you. I’m still learning. I have developed a much stronger eye than hand, with art, at this point. I struggle doing all these things too. It’s also much easier to just look at someone else’s work and see these things, than when I am working on something myself, because I get tunnel vision and lose the whole picture, and forget the things I know to do, and I all around see less clearly. Anyway, I hope this was helpful.
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3mo
Asked for help
Hi everyone,
I did a portrait exercise using a model I have seen on a Stephen Bauman video on YouTube. I am not really satisfied. I really struggled with the proportion. It is definitely an aspect I need to work on. Amongst other things, eyes are not as I would like them to be.
I’d love getting your comments on this one.
I wish you all a wonderful day.
3mo
People, have already made some of the observations that I had for you, so I will try to mostly stick to things not yet stated. First of all, for only starting to learn to draw a few months ago this is a nice attempt. I know what you mean when you say that you are out of your league, but at the same time, it’s also not really a thing, try whatever interest you as long as it’s not frustrating you more to do so. I don’t know if you are taking Proko’s “Drawing Basics” course, but if not I highly recommend it. Also, you can use different level of hardness graphite pencils, to get lighter and darker values easier. I like to use an HB and then use a 4B for the darkest parts.
One thing to keep in mind when rendering is that contrast really attracts the eye, so try not to use too much contrast in places that you don’t want the viewer to want to look at the most. First you have to know where you want the viewer to look, in a portrait that is probably the eyes, mouth, and then maybe the nose, in importance, because these are the things we find most important as far as recognizing how a person is feeling as they show expressions. We don’t tend to focus on something like their ear. Notice how in the Bauman’s drawing you only see the ear as an after thought, but you don’t focus on it. But in yours that is the number one thing I’m drawn to looking at. Why? Because it has a lot of contrast. What you could do to fix that is to lessen the light of the ear, meaning to dark it in just a little bit on the lighter spots, and that should help “push down the ear more.” I also think it would be better if you didn’t go darker than the hair for the inner dark parts of the ear.
Notice how in Bauman’s drawing in the lower part of the jaw it’s lighter? That’s because of bounce light that is literally from light that has hit something else like, her shoulder and chest, and reflected back into the shadow, lighting it that way. The direct light source is not hitting there, that is in fact still in shadow. That reflected light is almost always darker than anything in the light parts of her face, including dark halftones, but it often appears brighter than it is because we compare it to the dark shadow that is next to it. It’s an illusion, that can trick us into thinking it’s much brighter than it is.
To render successfully, it helps to think of the planes of the face, meaning the 3d forms of it. That part of the jaw that is getting the bounce light at the bottom, is only getting that bounce light, to that degree, because it is both close enough to the source of reflection, and that the planes of the jaw are turning inward where the skin will travel across an under plane and then reach the neck. Now all of that bounce light needs to be on the jaw, and none of it should be on the neck at the top, like you have it. That contour line of the face at the bottom represents the jaw, so all that bonce light should be above that line. Under that line, is the neck where it should be the darkest. When you but the bounce light at the top of the neck there, like you have it, it makes it look like the head is disconnected from the neck. So fill that in with dark shadow, below that jaw line, and above it there should be a bit more bounce light.
As far as the shadows under the eye goes, well, first if you look at his, he gave her just as much darkness there as he did in the parts that go up to the eyebrow, which are caused by the depth of the noes, and brow. When you just make it dark on the lower parts and light above it makes the lower parts, under the eye look more like makeup or something because the lighting isn’t consistent and therefor our brains struggle to understand the reason for the heightened darkness there. It also makes it distract our gaze from the eyes to the bottom eyelids.
Also look at the lower eyelid on our right for her. In his you can see that as it turns to the right, that lower eyelid shadow gets lighter. That is because the direction of the planes are turning. I think it might be receiving some of the light from the light source. If not then it is all bounce light. Either way the whole thing is not just one dark graphic shape of shadow, but instead it has a gradient because it represents the turning of those planes. Adding that will help make things look more rounded in 3d form. Without it things will look more flat.
I hope some of this helps. It’s a lot to absorb. Everything that I mentioned can be learned from the classes on the Proko site. Keep at it, and you will get it.
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Asked for help
I don't know why, but the more I tried to measure, the proportion became worse. Especially if I do it with the envelope method.
I hope I can get some feedbacks on this. Especially on how to use the envelope method, since to be honest. It's really counter intuitive for me, since to be able to envelope correctly, I need to measure the figure beneath it, which defeat the purpose of the envelope itself (?)
3mo
I felt the same way about the envelope method, but recently it has started making more sense to me. What has helped me understand that kind of thing more is that the envelope isn’t meant to start off correct. It is merely an estimation. A best guess. You shouldn’t expect to get it correct your first go. It is just a start, so that you can see something tangible on your page from which you can start comparing with. Expect to make many changes to it as you go. The same can be said for gesture drawing, or even just drawing the head, where you start simple, make sure that works, then add details to it. Those simple lines are meant to be erased and changed as you see fit, because they are easy to redo.
Drawing an arm at the wrong angle can really help you find it at the correct angle, because you can use that to compare to. That is part of the method, don’t let it frustrate you. It’s a tool not a mistake.
The more you work with angles and proportions the easier it will be for you to see them more correctly. But I would advice first trying to eyeball every measurement and place a mark, and then measure to test your accuracy. I feel that is the way that you can train your brain to see things more clearly. If all you do is measure, then I feel like you don’t really learn to see it.
If measuring is causing you to get worse proportions, them make sure that you are being consistent with your measuring. Measure things at the same angle, keep what your measuring perpendicular to your gaze. It’s easy to create distortion if you don’t get your angles right, and then your measurements will be incorrect.
7mo
I didn't see the downloads until just a few minutes ago. I followed the visual style and did some measuring. Although, to be honest I struggle with the measuring.
By struggling I mean I seem to take an inordinate amount of time to measure and when I think I have it, I measure again and come to realize that nope, my proportions are incorrect.
I'll try it again with the newly downloaded portraits provided. In the meantime, here is what I managed by doing the first 3 videos of the visual style. I know it is still not accurate, but would like to hear some feedback as to what I need to improve.
Yes I know I added features (like the mouth and the eyes) when that's not part of the first 3 videos.
4mo
For feedback the first thing I noticed is that in your drawing, her face looks longer, thinner, and more masculine. I think a lot of what is causing the masculine look is the jaw is looking thick and square. In that point that is between the line coming from the chin and the one coming from the ear, where they meet, in the photo that line looks horizontal with the bottom of her lower lip, but in your drawing it’s noticeably lower. I think raising that would help feminize her look. Could be that the chin is a little too wide. Hard to say because this is just showing the stage were you have simplified short lines, and maybe when more detail is added, meaning curves, then the chin might look smaller. I also think the neck might be just a little wide. The forehead looks a little higher in yours. On the left side, our left, the line going by the ear looks more vertical than the photo or even the one that you put on her right. Making that line pushing up to the left a little more diagonally could also help in making her face look less narrow.
But you are doing well, keep at it. Don’t let yourself get too frustrated over struggling with measuring and proportion, it’s a difficult skill to get good at, but the more you work on it the better you will get at it. You are not supposed to be good at it right away. One thing to consider when you are measuring an image to your drawing using your pencil and thumb to mark distances, try to be mindful of keeping the way you are measuring consistent. If you are changing the angel and distance from you to the image you are measuring, it’s not going to match. And if your drawing is flat on the table, and you are measuring it, sometimes sitting straight sometimes leaning over the drawing, or just leaning less or more at times, it’s going to make your measuring inconsistent. I definitely have falling for all the above. I hope this helps
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Is the summer sale discount supposed to work with "Marvel's The Art of Storytelling" presale? Or can you not use both sales on the same product? I'm not sure if it is just not working, or if it isn't meant to work.
4mo
Asked for help
Yikes 😬 that was difficult for me. It was a big jump in difficulty for me from the only using straight lines lesson. I got the snail but I don’t have confidence in my line drawing so it came out scratchy. 😕 I started the boot but was getting too frustrated so had to stop for a while. I need more practice drawing curved lines so gonna practice that for a while.
4mo
After reading your post I was inspired to write this thread here on Proko. You might find it helpful. https://www.proko.com/community/topics/the-mindset-that-will-help-you-get-better-at-line-control
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The Mindset That Will Help You Get Better At Line Control.4mo
I wrote this for people struggling to draw nice lines. People that have poor line control. I feel your pain. I used to have bad line control, and had to drawing things in little connecting lines that should have been one line. I wondered if I was just lacking a trait that would allow me to draw nice lines. Watching others that could draw nice long smooth lines that went where they wanted them to go seemed like magic to me. Even when I got good enough to capture a likeness, it was still a long and frustrating journey of crawling along the page with small lines that I had to spend a lot of time erasing and adjusting. It made it difficult to start a drawing because I knew it would be a frustrating struggle, that would take a long time. But I have learned to draw nice long lines that, mostly, go were I want them too. I still do have to take time to warm up, and practice regularly. It’s a great feeling, and you can get there.
What I did to help myself improve my line control, is to simple work on making lines that I imagined making. Mostly straights and curves. I concentrated more on straights at first. I would try to draw long straight lines finding the way my arm naturally found it easiest, at first. I tried to draw lines that matched the one that I had just drawn but a little under it. Then tried to draw over the straight line to see if I could match it. I tried other directions to my lines. I added in curves. When I could make nice curve lines I started to work on making them start from one point and hit the other point while staying a nice smooth line. I tried drawing at different speeds to see what worked best. Some speeds work best for different things, such as what is easiest to make a smooth line, and what is easiest to make an exact line that goes where you want it.
I had tried doing this some years ago, but my lines were still bad, and I found it frustrating, and got discouraged. This time I let go of my connection with my want to get it right. The lines would be what they would be, my goal was only to improve from the last stroke, or, if it was better than normal, to match it. I made a game out of it in my mind. I allowed myself to be interested in the possess of it without the added weight applied by needing to have a good end result. When I would make a nice line that did what I wanted, I would try to take note of what I did. When the following line would be worse, I would do the same, but would not allow myself to think of it as a frustrating struggle, that would lead to feelings of disappointment. There was nothing to be disappointed in, I was not looking at the bigger destination of drawing well, in those moments, instead a mistake would give me just as much helpful info as doing a line well.
I replaced frustration and disappointment, in my mind, with curiosity and interest. Like in a video game where you keep trying to beat a level and making mistakes, and then falling for them again, while you remind yourself not to make that mistake next time, and try again. Every time you make a nice smooth line that goes where you want it to go, it’s like you beat a level, and that feels good. But that doesn’t mean that you are done with that level. That means you play that level again, and again, and again. Sometimes winning, sometimes not. But the fact that you don’t get it right every time is part of what makes it so interesting. When you are working on this skill, you are not trying to make a pretty picture. The end result of each attempt doesn’t matter. Each attempt is only there to help you with your next attempt. The more you play this “game,” the more often your attempts product nice lines. Then at some point you start drawing something and you see it coming together with nice lines and being more fun than struggle, and it will feel magical.
In between sessions, of playing this line making game, watch videos of artist, that draw lines well, drawing where you can see their arm. Study how they move. Watch the line that they just made, study the line, then rewind and watch it again just watching what they do with their arm this time. Then try it yourself. Keep trying different things, such as speeds of drawing the line, and different ways of holding your pencil. Then watch other artist, with good line control, make lines again, and repeat. Keep curious and thinking about it. Imagine yourself doing it in your head. If you can make this fun, you will do it more. I now find it fun and stress free to work on line control. It’s more like mediation for me now. I do page after page after page of this in one session. I do it on copy paper, and my iPad. I wish I had done this years ago. But back when I first tired I hadn’t yet found the positive attitude that makes this successful. Just one year ago I was really bad at line control. I’m happy to be able to do it as well as I can now, and I look forward to getting much better in the future. In the meantime, I’m going to keep playing my line control game. I hope this helped to inspire someone to think about this process differently. It doesn’t have to feel like boring and frustrating work. It can feel more like play if you let it.
5mo
Asked for help
I wanted to do three different studies by three different artist, but I only managed to get one done. This is a great exercise, I will definitely do more of them. I’m glad I did this. It’s giving me more confidence. I have been mostly working on line control exercises, so it was nice to actually draw something. My line control exercises are really helping a lot. I was bad at line control a year ago, and now I feel like I am passable at it. This course has helped me a lot already, and has made drawing more fun for me.
For my assignment I studied the artist Carlos, Gomes Cabral, AKA carloscabralart on Instagram.
I think the red pencil helps. I still have too many searching lines, but more of them are finding what they are looking for. This looks far better than what I did in graphite:
7mo
I can see the improvement. Nice work. I don't think you need the red pencil. I think you just picked up some better methods from watching the demo as far as doing loose sketches. I did as well.
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Thanks Stan, this was a great help. This video has lots of great tips in it. It really helped clarify to me how you intended us to work on this assignment. I would have worked a bit differently on mine had I seen this video first, and not just for these references, but for any. I feel it will go a bit easier next time for me. I will also let my sketches be a little more messy next time.
I see what you mean as long as you keep your searching, or even lost, lines light, and just darken in where you decide they should go with dark lines, you will still have clarity with your design that will read well. I was pretty concerned with my lost lines making my drawing lose clarity as I worked on this assignment. I think if I just keep things light longer then I wouldn’t have to worry about undoing, or erasing, so much. Something that also sounds more enjoyable.
Although, I think too many lost lines, even drawn lightly, could still confuse even the person drawing at some point. Also, there is still the issue of messing up with the placement of your dark lines, and or deciding lines need to be moved after you have placed them, that will still make you need to erase or undo sometimes, else you will have your dark lines looking like a lost lines mess. I’m sure it’s just one of those things that the more you do it, the better you get, the less of an issue that is.
Asked for help
I tried to stay loose and keep things simple. The urge to want to perfect and clean things up was stronger than I had expected, but I did my best to let it be kind of messy. I would have kept messing with it but I wanted to get it done in time so I am stopping there, which is probably a good thing. I’m working digitally in Procreate, and I am still fighting for line control, so I did have to undo a bunch as well, just to keep it from being a complete mess. I tried to find a good balance between too much mess and not enough to keep to the instructions of the assignment.
Who did the thumbnail art for the cover of this video? I think it looks really nice. I am assuming it’s a real artist artwork and not AI. Seems way to good for AI right now.
11mo
You have another course called "Drawing with Life, Energy and Story." I was wondering how this course differs from that one.
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1yr
You have to follow those perspective lines that you find. So if you don’t know perspective you will have to learn the basics to see it. To me those pictures look like the camera is about where the abs are for the guy, and where the chest is for the girl. So that is my best guess.
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