Rebooting my art learing journey - feedback appreciated
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Geert-Jan
So i've been practicing drawing (almost) daily for the last 2 years or so. But I lack focus and structure. After listening to the draftmen podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od1xbX2ESP8). I've decided to bring in more structure. The podcast mentions this Redit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/learnart/comments/dapk62/from_the_guy_who_made_the_most_comprehensive_list/) with a full curriculum. My challenge will be to follow this curriculum as close as possible. I've created this topic mostly to keep myself accountable. But i will post created work regulary, and any feedback/ critique from you guys is greatly appreciated! Some personal info: -39 years old -fulltime job outside art -On average i have 1 hour each day to practise (a bit more in the weekends) -Not a native English speaker, so please forgive me the grammar and spelling mistakes :) The first unit is figure drawing. I've already followed Stan's figure drawing course before, so im revisiting the course. Here are some 2 minute and 30 second gesture drawings (drawn in Procreate). Please let me know what you think of them.
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Geert-Jan
Week 30: i've missed two days where i wasn't able to draw. However, i did a fair amount of gesture drawings. I also continued to work on the reddit gets drawn community where i tried to cartoonize a bunch of people :) Also thanks to @prymitywizm @Danet @kotka and @Liandro for giving me great feedback and tips to keep me motivated. Included a selection of work i did this week. Next week i start my own unit that isn't in the curriculum: inking where i use the resources that Liandro described over here: https://www.proko.com/community/topics/resources-about-digital-inking
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Liandro
Nice work, @Geert-Jan! I’m excited to know how the inking experience will turn out for you!
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Geert-Jan
Week 29: continued with gesture drawings and the proko basics course. For fun drawing, i discovered the "reddit gets drawn" community https://www.reddit.com/r/redditgetsdrawn/ where i tried to cartoonize some people :). Also had some great feedback from different people in this topic. For the upcoming week i will continue gesture drawing.
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prymitywizm
I love the fact you are doing iterations on gesture drawings! I have apparently unpopular opinion, but in the second drawing I definitely like gesture 4 the most - thou it is my personal impression - - I can feel there the same inward motion the model portrayed. It evokes the same feeling of insecurity, and I think this is due to the way the hand and the upper back work there. But that's just me guessing, so feel free to ignore me ;) The challenge looks awesome, maybe one day i will give it a shot as well!
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Danet
Good job, as usual. Keep working this way and you’re going to see a lot of improvement. I agree with you on how hard it is to balance proportions and energy.not to mention structure and line. I still struggle with these things myself. I agree with @kotka, number three is my favourite too. I have added a few things for you to think about. Mainly, what does the apex of our line communicate. I hope this helps. I’ve also added some ideas relating to how these rhythms connect. One thing that really helped me was to actually draw arrows at the end of my lines. let me know if you have any questions. (I love questions by the way)
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kotka
Nice work! I think your simplifications have improved after the good critique from @Danet and @Steve Lenze. For the first gesture, version 3 is the best. This is because you have managed to properly show that her weight rests on the knees, and you included the important left hand which I feel is missing from the other versions. Whatever you did, or thought, in version three - make sure to do more of it! In the second gesture, number two is the best. Her proportions are the most correct here out of all the versions, and it's also balanced. In the other versions, her arm is too short and too close to the knee, which messes up the balance (she looks like she will roll backward any second). The reddit challenge seems nice, I think I'll try it once I brave the head drawing. You managed to capture her facial expression pretty good. I see this in your basset drawing, too. Could this be one of your "natural" talents? Keep exploring, looking forward to see more!
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Geert-Jan
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Week 28: continued with the gesture drawings. Took some time to read @Danet gesture critiques and watched some videos about FORCE gesture drawing. Based on Danet's advice i've included the references from wich i drew the gestures. I'm not sure i'm getting it though. I've tried to simplify the gestures and draw less. Also continued to do an assignment from Stan's drawing basics course where we had to draw a creature from imagination based on reference. I had fun drawing this prussian basset hound general.
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Geert-Jan
@Danet @Steve Lenze and @kotka thank you so much for your feedback! I did the following so far this week: -fixed the eyes on the dog characters -did a bunch of gesture drawings, this time did multiple drawings of 1 model. Really tried to exaggerate and simplify the drawings. -Watched and studied the video about torso's suggested by Danet. The challenge will be for me to recognize the different types of torso's. For the prussian general dog character, this would be the third itteration, so i thought it would be fun to post al 3 of them :)
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Danet
Hi, great work as usual. I love all the work you did designing the helmet, and the character is a lot of fun. I agree with @Steve Lenze notes on the eyes. They are one of the hardest parts to draw. As for the figure drawing, here are some notes on the way the force method works. Hope it helps. Take a look at this video too. It explains the types of torso you can find. It’s quite long but very valuable. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SL2H5JquELg As for the limbs, you want to get to a similar point as with the right screen arm, there you created a path which describes how the arm connects. It helps to try different things, and see which works best. Lots of quick drawings of the same figure will teach you more than one slow drawing of many figures. let me know if you have any doubts!
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Steve Lenze
Your gesture drawings are looking pretty good, but you need to incorporate what your learning into your cartoon drawings too. The biggest issue is with the eyes. The way you have drawn them is flattening them out. You need to make sure you think of the eyes as spheres and make sure the brows wrap around them. I did a quick sketch to show you what I mean, I hope it helps :)
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Geert-Jan
Week 27: continued with the gesture drawings, which i did digitally. Also continued with Stan's beginner course with some line drawing assignments (the hand, penguins and the robot girl-thing). For fun i drew some stylized/ cartoonized people from references i've found on Pinterest.
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Danet
Hi! Good job. I love that you keep on doing fun drawings and combining them with your studies. I also agree with @prymitywizm that your line is very good. I have done a few critiques on gesture drawings before, so you can take a look at some of the images on my profile https://www.proko.com/@danimctigue/albums/gesture My main note, for you, is that you are drawing too much. What we think of as gesture depends on the teacher, but I’m of the force school. To me, the important part of gesture is trying to find the rhythms not the shapes (that comes later) This way we are able to think of the body as one thing only. So the gesture is not just about what the story is, but how all the different parts connect to tell that story. I know this sounds a bit vague, but it isn’t. Gesture is pretty straightforward. Read some of my critiques and make sure to post some of the reference images next to the drawings next time, that way I can be more specific. keep up the good work.
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prymitywizm
How long gesture drawings took you? On the kneeling guy, I feel the neck is a bit misplaced, and the centerline of the body goes to its left side, not to the centre, also the head fills a bit big. Very clean lines - you are drawing so cleanly (that'd be super impressive), or it was cleaned up? PS. I don't know why, but I didn't get notifications for your posts lately :(
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Geert-Jan
week 26: a bad week for drawing. Between working overtime, visiting family and other stuff, i've had little time to draw. I did however do a 45 minute gesture drawing gesture. Next week will be better (i hope)
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Geert-Jan
Week 25: Completed the movie scene challenge. Also took up a small project to draw an avatar. Tried to work digitally. Since the avatar will be displayed small, i wanted to make a more simplified drawing, and also tried to incorporate some "style". But i'm not really happy with the result. Does anyone has some advice or opinion on it? Next week i will start the unit "Anatomy II - the torso"
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Danet
Hi @Geert-Jan Good work on the scenes, Especially the lego and the guy in the car, there’s a lot of structure in them. Making a simplified drawing is actually harder in some ways than making a complex one. My main advice is to make an underdrawing first, and find the planes, so that you don’t lose the structure. It will also help when you start adding simple shadows. I added on the right the way I would do it. The character changed a bit, but I think it will help. let me know if you have any doubts, and keep up the great work.
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Geert-Jan
week 24: i had a bit of a difficulty to get back on track, but i've continued to draw more movie scenes. I also did the new lessons in the drawing basic course. I've decided on a small project that i could do for the upcoming week (where i talked about in week 20): to draw an avatar that i could use here on Proko.com. Goals for the upcoming week: -finish the movie scene challenge -draw an avatar -continue with the drawing basic course
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Geert-Jan
Week 23: partly back from vacation. I've managed to do some more drawing this week, but i wasn't following the curriculum. I've treated myself and also bought @Stan Prokopenko 's Drawing basics course. Followed along with the exercises. Also drew some stuff in Procreate from imagination, trying a more illustrative style. For the upcoming week the goal is to continue with the movie scene challenge, and follow along with new lessons published in the drawing basics course.
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scott ford
Hey Geert-Jan me too except I am a lot older , been drawing informally since I was a kid. Several years ago took several basic drawings classes locally , started drawing a lot. Then I ran into Proko YouTube’s and decided I needed to take a class. I was a computer professional and retired and decided to do more art. So like yourself I am doing a reboot. I found huge gaps in the art classes I took and the ones I am taking with Proko.
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Demetrio Cran
Hi Scott, I have a bit more than two decades ahead before retirement. I am pursuing art in my free time, amazed by all the free resources at my fingertips. I found studying art very meaningful, and I totally imagine myself doing a lot of that after leaving the workforce. See you around!
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Geert-Jan
@scott ford thats great! Are you following the same curriculum? And do you have a routine for practicing?
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Geert-Jan
Week 22: another vacation week. I've managed to do some sketching this week, but due to slow wifi i won't be able to post them here. Next week i will be flying home where i will pick up the curriculum again.
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Geert-Jan
Week 21: between flying, preparing, travelling i didn't have any time for drawing and i am in full vacation mode. Did some hot garbage sketches on the beach when i was rally tired though. I hope i can sketch a little more in the upcoming week.
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Danet
Hi @Geert-Jan Have fun on your holiday. It’s good to take some time off So don’t sweat it if you just need a break from drawing. I came to see how you were doing on your massive drawing marathon. The movie scene drawings look good, especially the guardians of the galaxy one. You can see how you’ve started to apply what you have learnt. Enjoy your break!
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Geert-Jan
Week 20: second week of the unit. Bit of a hectic week, couldn't draw as much as i wanted to. But i've continued with the movie scene challenge and watched some theory videos about composition. For the upcoming 3 weeks I will be on vacation, so i won't be working on the curriculum. I will bring a sketschbook with me on vacation, so i might post some sketches for fun :). Some thing else that i've encoutered this week: a new video from Scyra, where he discusses that you shouldn't practice but do projects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rlF-qE-vsM. It has got me thinking. I do think that i want to continue practicing the way i do now, but maybe I should start a side project. To be continued.
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prymitywizm
I watch the video (thanks for link!) and I agree with it, but just to some extent. I am all for projects - I think it is much better motivation than very abstract "improving", BUT I also think the best way is to mix a project with a roadmap like the art curriculum. My main reason is: You don't know what you don't know. Sometimes (probably mostly when you are a beginner) something about drawing just feels off - and you have no idea why. If you do not know what contributes to "good" drawing, it is much harder to figure out what is wrong. Think about values - if you don't know they are super important, it is hard to realize on your own that they are the issue. on the other hand I agree that there is no point in learning i.e. drawing vehicles unless you really need to for a project if you are not interested in them (yeah I am probably skipping that draw a box lesson). And when we talk about DaB - the challenges on the website are super boring, and hype killing BUT as long as I feel I am learning something from it - IMHO its with it. I.e. 250 boxes helped me to control my lines better and trained me to ghost lines - I liked that, so even I didn't enjoy the challenge, I felt I am getting something of it. With 250 cylinders I don't have that feeling so I am skipping it at least for now - now I am just repeating same mistakes, struggling and hating the experience so it doesn't make sense for me. I think its just too hard for me at this point.
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Geert-Jan
Week 19: the start of a new unit. i've previously skipped the composition and storytelling I unit, but i've decided to start with this unit. I've watched some theoretical video's about composition and started the "thumbnail 50 favorite movie scenes" challenge. I'm currently 15 scenes in. Attached are some examples. I've also decided to do this challenge digital. Bonus points if you can guess the movies :).
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kotka
Hey, I am in the same situation as you, on the same quest and a full-time job in a profession I dream of abandoning every day for the art dream I've had all my life. Found the draftsmen podcast, and it changed my habits for the better. I'm also doing the "DIY Artschool" from Reddit, currently on box 146. Just wanted to say if you want some support, send me and DM. We can help each other out! Peace
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Geert-Jan
Hey @kotka Thanks! I can definitely use some support once in a while :) What do you think of the "reddit curriculum" so far? Did you have any experience in drawing before starting with it?
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Geert-Jan
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Week 18: The last week of this unit. I've continued the 250 cylinder challenge, and i'm 200 cylinders in. i could use some feedback on these. obvious they are not correct. But i'm wondering how you would get a better result. Drawabox states that you should eyeball the boxes and make an educated guess for the converging lines. Also continued lesson 4 and created a bunch of studies of insects. To reward myself for the work of the last weeks, i've bought myself some nice colored pencils. I've drawn attached frog with them ;)
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prymitywizm
How the hell your insects have such readable lines? Tablet?
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prymitywizm
I am probably a horrible person right now, but I am happy that I am not the only one for whom 200 cylinders is a hellish challenge 😅 What helped me with boxes a bit was to draw a box and then make a second one almost the same, just with one variable changed - that way I could see how this one particular change affects the rest - I think some things fell into place after that + the challenge is less boring this way. Ps. I am starting perspective II next week, but I plan also to finish those hellish cylinders before that unite challenge.
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Samantha Maggard
I can’t answer your question on the perspective but your insects are very good. The line quality is spot on and the shapes look 3d. Is this digital?
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Geert-Jan
Week 17: a short update case it is christmas. But i've continued the drawabox lessons this week. Tried to create more foreshortened elypsis. Also started lesson 4 (drawing of insects)
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artpunk
@Geert-Jan Nice work! I am just embarking on a similar path but with much less skill than you exhibit. Do you think Drawabox is helping you on your art journey? I am finding it pretty frustrating so far and not that enjoyable. Curious to hear your thoughts on it.
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Geert-Jan
@artpunk Thanks! I think it's definitely worth it, i can see that my line work has improved a lot, and i have a better understanding of 3d shapes in space. It can be boring at the same time to. but as @Irshad Karim suggests, you should divide your time in 50% doing the boring practice and 50% in drawing for the sake of it, or just "play" to keep you sane. You can read about it here: https://drawabox.com/lesson/0/2/faq . What do you find frustrating in the drawabox lessons?
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Geert-Jan
Week 16: Continue with the drawabox lessons. I've had some awesome feedback from @elkad @James Hicks and @Danet . I think that i have a better understanding how ellipses and cylinders work. Getting them correct on paper freehand with a fineliner is a different story :) . Anyway, i'm 115 cylinders in the 250 cylinder challenge, drew along with the plant examples and drew some construction plants and mushrooms to. Also did a longer portrait drawing for fun, and did the branches exercise again.
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elkad
Nice work! Nice rendering on the portrait too! You're checking pretty your cylinders quite well although I'll point out a few errors I've - sometimes when you're drawing the correct minor ellipses its not going down the centre of the ellipse. e.g. 111, 76, 82 are all off to one side - As Danet mentioned, avoid cylinders with little to no foreshortening. You're not fully practicing perspective if there's no foreshortening. For that matter, practice a variety of foreshortening, get extreme in some of them! One other thing I noticed is your ellipses in both the mushrooms and the curved cylinders aren't shifting, they're basically the same width all the way through. We're actually viewing each ellipse from a slightly different angle so some should appear wider/thinner than others, I've attached a diagram for explanation. Keep up the good work!
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Danet
Good work, love the last plant, Most of your ellipses are pretty good, especially considering you’re doing them with the fineliner, and I can see you’ve been checking their accuracy using the blue lines. My only note, is that you want the lines of your cylinders to converge such as in numbers 78 or 79. Try to avoid parallel lines such as in 73. check my notes and let me know if you have any questions.
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draft_al
These are some really nice poses. Keep it going Geert. Is it digital?
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Geert-Jan
thanks @draft_al ! The poses are done digitaly in procreate. However the last couple of weeks i only work traditionally
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Geert-Jan
Asked for help
week 15: second unit of the second term. officially i should be working on drawabox lessons 4-7, but i haven't done lesson 3 yet, so i'll be working on that first. I'm also working on the 250 cilinder challenge. For this week i did the arrows, leaves and branches exercises. I also drew the first 65 cilinders, and dit a bit of a longer portrait drawing for fun in my new strathmore toned sketchbook. I've found the cilinder challenge very challenging, not sure how to check if i'm doiing it right. Anybody got any tips for that?
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prymitywizm
I find the cylinders challenge much harder than the box one, mainly because of checking. I am not sure if I am finding my minor axis right correctly. I THINK (I am not sure though - maybe someone will correct me) we should find the widest part of the ellipse and check if it is perpendicular to the major axis - I think it aligns with what @Danet said, but again I feel a bit lost about it. I am curious how you will feel about the second part of the challenge - drawing ellipses within a box - I'll be honest I had my crisis there, and I quit, but seeing you going strong motivates me to go back, so thanks for that! :)
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Danet
I must say, I am in awe of your work. I really admire your drive. A lot of good stuff here. Your ellipses are pretty good in general, for the few that were a bit off I have added some notes. Your portrait is really beautiful, it just needs a bit more structure. When you start applying everything that you’re learning to your figures you are going to explode. I’m really looking forward to seeing what you produce. A face isn’t a cube, but some of the parts are alligned, and they help us to avoid things getting out of wack. I recommend drawing over photographs to find the perspective In the face. oh and don’t forget to find the edge that is closer to us. I marked it in purple. hope this helps. let me know if you have any doubts and keep going!
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elkad
Hi! I did drawabox a little while ago so I can offer some tips. Checking for mistakes is an important steps for understanding what you're doing wrong and how to improve. For cylinders: - find the center point of the 2 ellipses and check if your minor axis divides the ellipses exactly in half - with a ruler, draw the correct minor axis for each ellipse and see how it compares to the minor axis you drew, it should be perpendicular to the major axis - check foreshortening is correct - the ellipse closest to the viewer should be larger than the one going away - check the degree shift - the ellipse further away should be wider than the ellipse closest to the viewer. The difference in wideness should follow the amount of foreshortening. So in this example: - the minor axis runs directly down the middle of both ellipses, nice - the minor axis is pretty close for the small ellipse but is not aligned for the larger one - the cylinder is foreshortened the wrong way. Your hatching indicate smaller ellipse is visible and is closest to us, but if its closest to us it should be larger than the other ellipse - the degree shift is good, the ellipse further away from us is wider. The difference in wideness is believable given the amount of foreshortening So it should looks something like my example (although you can see it's not perfect either). Keep checking for mistakes and look for trends, that way you can figure out which areas you can improve on. Hope that helps! Also if you haven't already, you should checkout the drawabox discord server, its pretty active and you're much more likely to get feedback from people familiar with the course content
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