AI for generating ideas?
10mo
Liandro
When I’m coming up with my cartoons, I usually find it easier to envision the drawing part, but I tend to have a harder time when attempting to create texts (for example, funny punch lines, witty captions etc.) And I’ve been finding it helpful to interact with ChatGPT for that. It doesn’t give me anything close to a great final text ready to be used, but it’s helping me get "unstuck" with more ease. Have you guys ever tried any AI tool for brainstorming, developing a rough idea or something like that? If so, what do you think of the experience?
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Ely
7mo
I feel like it takes a critical part of the creative process away, either personal creativity to overcome a problem or meaningful collaboration with another person. Both can teach you more about overcoming the problem in the future than it is to just rely on machine input to jumpstart an idea. Limitations are helpful for growth, outsourcing a limitation to a machine just feels self defeating to creative growth. Besides, it's your voice, your scene, wouldn't you want your jokes, your words to come out? Even if it's not perfectly worded or knee slapping funny, it's still you, your unique voice. But I guess it depends on how you view art. Anything AI would be able to automate are all things I want to do or get better at so it holds no interest for me.
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Liandro
Thanks for sharing your opinions, @Ely!
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Dan B
I think it will find uses eventually, but not to the level of hype or threats discussed now. I think fundamentally, 'AI' generated pieces/references/whatever are *empty.* I think we (people) like the idea that a piece either came from something in our world, or was *someone's* idea. AI creating it out of 'nothing' in a sense leaves no exploration for 'why' or prompts to investigating the artist's choices. The AI (Well, ML really...) just *did it*. What do you explore with that other than algorithms? I think you're right on this use-case though, prompts for ideas will I think continue, but they are meaningless (literally) without the artists applying their ideas over it. Sure, people are still going to be wowed by the generated art, but the interest will disappear immediately after that, because who *really* wants to follow an algorithm. And sure, scammers, as there ever has been, will continue to try and fool us (i.e. photobashing) and so we must continue to be careful. On top of all that, I just don't think 'AI' will be profitable enough for these use cases. And, if people are all using these generation services for 'free,' then we have to ask how they are making money then.
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Liandro
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, @Dan B! I agree that art is grounded in a sense of people being able to relate with each other - beyond the piece and what it communicates, most of us also care about who crafted it and why do they wanted to communicate that. I also agree that, once the novelty hype settles a bit and we start to get more used to living with AI, the use-case of having it be a tool in an artist’s creative process could spread even more with various uses and applications and with most artists tendind to keep control over their creative processes. But I understand that the impact of AI goes much beyond it being a tool for brainstorming or technical automation; it messes with more complex issues such as data privacy, identity crimes and fake information dissemination, to mention a few. As much as its impact on art jobs (and others) is a relevant thing for us to be aware of, I understand that it’s these other issues which should have the greatest social impact and demand large scale adaptations.
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Liandro
You know, guys, by reading your comments, I can’t help but get thoughts popping all over. I’m comparing the AI phenomenon with the invention of photography back in the late 1800s. Until then, only artists could make images, and they had literally no other way but to go through the hard path of dedicating their entire lives to learn, practice and hone their craft. But once it was possible for basically anyone to record an image within seconds through the click of a button, what was the point of painting anyway? This is the premise that triggered modern art and launched visual languages to unprecedent levels. Although representational painting was out of museums, it eventually found a new fruitful territory in the entertainment industry. And artists eventually found, in photography, a handy tool to help them do their work. Now, with AI, it feels like another historical roadblock. It gets me thinking: what exactly does it mean to be creative? What’s the difference between a human and AI when it comes to being creative? ChatGPT tells me that AI “can generate outputs that mimic creative elements", but it "struggles to generate truly original and unique work” and "lacks the intuitive leaps and inspiration that come naturally to humans". It says that the difference lies in the fact that humans have intuition, a personal bias, subjective experiences, emotional judgements and unique perspectives based on their particular life histories. Is this the time to embrace, strengthen and value our singular selves? Not just be creative, but be creative in such a way that only I (and you, and anyone individually) can be? Embrace each one’s originality with all their unique sets of biases, limitations, judgements, flaws and insights? Maybe. There is a real threat AI is bringing upon artists (and several other jobs) on a macro, social level in our “money-must-come-first” economy. But is AI enough to alienate humans from making art altogether? I truly doubt it. I believe art in the core of our species existence. Whether by rejecting AI or by integrating it somehow, I think humans will always want to make and experience art.
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Charline B.R.
Photography is a good comparison but I would rather think of the printing invention. Until that every book was hand copied by monks during weeks if not months, and each were piece of art, rare, beautiful... If we compare these with today books, well... our standard soft cover book doesn't fare well :'D BUT this invention allowed the birth of literature, journalism, history, even computing to an extend... Sure the industrialization of creating a book made the books themselves less interesting (in comparison), but what they carry inside on the other hand had become the main subject. Your point with "what" is creativity is actually what we must focus on. The point of art is to carry a message, the technique around is a way to convey it, the more the technique works the better (bad technique steal the viewer attention away from the message). I think that social media pushed a bit too much the "technical perfection" trend, most artist display very beautiful piece but I must ask : how many of these piece has make an impression on us ? I can binge watch instagram or pinterest without remembering anything... Maybe internet isn't really the place for art actually, maybe art is going to go back to physical piece and that is for the best. AI won't create by itself, but it can help. Currently we think of generative tool that exist, rather we must think about the technology behind. It's an enhanced robot that can learn, which mean it can become a personal assistant for everyone, tailored to every specifics needs. It won't do the heavy lifting if you don't want it to do it. See Proko test with AI to shorten the video production : it's a very good example, AI remove the annoying part of the process that actually don't have creativity value, helping gain time and concentrate on real creation. I'm very thrilled with what it will offer, and I can see it like that : ditch washing machine, vacuum cleaner, dishwasher and think about how your house is all hand-tended with care and it's so much better. Sure there are benefit of doing thing by hands, but we have only so much life time and we need to choose were the effort is put. AI will be our art tools to focus on the right parts, I am sure of it :)
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@paper
Dear Mr Liandro, I think you made an excellent point and your final point on creativity is highly excellent. But I can't help but be cynical at this fact. What I'm about to say is probably bad and maybe even distateful, so I am very sorry about it. To me, I don't think people will embrace their creativity. I feel with the rise of A.I we will have a very specific type of art/writting in these ages, and that is art/writting about sexual abuse/violence. Not because A.I could not make such stories/art, but just because such topic is banned in A.I.  (Excerpt from an article talking about midjourney "Midjourney strives to make its content PG-13, and hence, it has implemented a filter that automatically forbids and bans exact words or similar words related to violence, drugs, harassment, adult content, gore, aggressiveness, and abusiveness."   https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.greataiprompts.com/imageprompt/list-of-banned-words-in-midjourney/%23:~:text%3DMidjourney%2520strives%2520to%2520make%2520its,gore%252C%2520aggressiveness%252C%2520and%2520abusiveness.&ved=2ahUKEwiqpNjMj4yAAxX28zgGHccvDvsQFnoECA0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw0TEJxPVrHpHTXkNwKdhUcM An article on wikihow on things that is illegal in Chatgpt- I have not confirm if this is true but I have a hard time believing that it isn't considering chatgpt had become so comericalble "Disallowed usage includes: illegal activity, violent content, adult content, fraudulent activity, and more" https://www.wikihow.com/Can-You-Get-Banned-from-Chat-Gpt) I speculate with these filters (and if the two website I had mentioned will still be used by company in the future and reach a point where the product of these and of humanity will be no different) that the most popular art/writting (atleast of the human kind) will be focusing on more taboo subject. (Though A.I. have already produce countless gory subject matter, so perhaps in the future the prominence subject of art will be that of dealing with sexual abuse/rape?) I would likke to mention the artist Hiroaki Samura as an example (I have attached an example below on image 1), an artist who create art that touch on sexual abuse. If one were to type in "Hiroki Samura A.I. art", he is one of the artist that the A.I. cannot replicate the feeling of (Example of A.I replicating Hiroaki Samura's art on image 2). Most of the other artist, who drew/paint dark subject, I.E. Andrew Wyeth, Zdizlaw bekskinki, Kathe Koltzwitz. Though the A.I. could not copy their draftsmanship, it can copy their feeling. Hiroki Samura is one of the few where I couldn't feel it. Unlike the other three, That feeling of hopelessness wasn't present in the A.I. (Of course, one could also suspect the other weaknes of A.I. art, which is it cannot create Black and white ink drawing, Only painting. But hopefully these point still stand- I should also mention that inking could also be a sign of authentication in what an A.I. generated world, where one can tell which is art is created by humans if one of post an artwork made entirely by ink/Black and white, though of course this is thinking that the A.I. would not just get better) Conclusive thought Perhaps these restriction will encourage artist to create more dark masterpiece. Art that is in line with Silent hill 2 , the house in fata morgana, Clarissa, paranoia agent and berserk. Works that showcase the horror of the world in it's entirety without fear of what people think. (Though I do find it interesting that if my prediction is correct, the only art that human can truly produce that is original, are art that's we seem to want to look away from) In the early 21st century, with the rise of mental health issue and psychology, we found ourselves with more introspective story. About characters fighting mental illness and trauma. Just like that, I speculate that in the early middle of the 21st century, we will continue this topic, only it will become more apparent with the rise of A.I. Apologies for such dark topic. Would like to know if you have any thoughts on this.
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Steve Lenze
Photography was different, it could only capture what was real, what it could see. But, artists were still needed to create worlds and creatures and historical things that a camera couldn't. Not the same as AI, It is a replacement. It takes copywrited work from other artists and photos, and without permission, creates whatever it wants. Completely unethical. If I want to make a animated show, and have it look like Bruce Timm did all the designs, I don't have to pay Bruce Timm to do it, I can just steal his style by using AI. Your Idea that we could somehow be creative in a new, unique way is a nice thought, but with AI it won't matter, it will just steal that too. I agree that humans will continue to create art despite AI. The difference will be that no one will be able to make a living from it. Sorry if this sounds negative, but business is what business is and by it's nature, it is profoundly negative.
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The guy from BluishDot
This is a tricky subject. But here are my two cents.    I have not used generative AI and I have no intention of using it. But I've seen what it can do.   I think that using AI to get over those “sticking points” (whether it’s text or imagery) can be a slippery slope. Sure, it’s small things at first - writing an E-Mail, writing video descriptions, or generating some ideas for artistic projects. However, after a while, it might become increasingly tempting to integrate AI more and more. And before you know it, you'll end up becoming dependent on it. I think the struggle and the “getting stuck” part is essential for someone's growth. The act of learning has value (even when it comes to smaller stuff). It’s not always easy, it’s not always pleasant, but it doesn't always have to be.
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Liandro
I see your point, @The guy from BluishDot! Overcoming roadblocks is indeed a big part of learning and a big part of creating as well.
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@paper
Not really just because I feel like it make my improv skill worse. I learn Bashing your brain for 10 hours to make the perfect punchline is a nice exercise and give contrast compare to having to make a joke in a convesation and having about 30 seconds to either land the punchline or having awkward silence all around you.  I feel like using chatgpt is just going to end up being a clutch for when I can't make a joke and at some point probably use it more than what a normal person do. I also have a fear that it would probably just create something that's already done. An A.I.'s job is basically just taking everything that had been done and repackaged it. The only way someone is going to make something new is (or atleast for me) when you're so exhaused that you start getting delirium and don't care if the idea is good or not and just write it down. And I don't know if I can reach that point with A.I. , since it would probably be too easy.
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Liandro
That’s a very interesting thought, @paper. It does seem that a gold mine of human creativity is often found in a sort of “dreamy” state of mind. I don’t think inducing oneself to exhaustion is a very healthy path, but I believe we can consciously learn to not judge our ideias as good or bad. Either way, that’s true, if it’s the AI doing the creative task, all we’re left with is the judging part... which is honestly much easier than actually creating.
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Mike Karcz
I'm in the camp where I hate AI. For ChatGPT - where it generates written content - I don't care as much, though I still dislike it. In regards to using it for visual "inspiration"; I truly despise it. #1 - It's literally stealing art from artists to generate its images. There's been cases where watermarks - the artists' signature - was planted into the generated image. No artist ever has given their consent to have their artwork harvested for an abomination designed to someday replace them. (Sorry if I'm using too strong language, I just get passionate, haha). #2 - I understand why someone would use image generators for 'inspiration', but I don't GET why an artist would use it. It's like, robbing yourself of one of the best parts of creating - the part of discovering. You have an idea of something you want to draw.... so BRAINSTORM. Discover! If you NEEEED inspiration, pick up a magazine, read a book, play, let your imagination take over. Do thumbnail sketches. Look at other artists who've tackled similar subjects. Draw inspiration for their poses, the lines they used, their shape language, etc. There are sooo many art books out there. This isn't the same as looking at an AI image because the artist was deliberate about what he made; the AI is not. The AI is like a lump of wet mud mushed into what it thinks 'deliberate' looks like. To me in my opinion, using AI to create visual art is excessively lazy, detrimental to your own artistic progress, and sacrilegious to the process of creating.
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Liandro
I think your strong language makes perfect sense, @Mike Karcz!
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Dennis Yeary
I have experimented with it. I try using it to be an idea generator. where I ask it can give be some cartoon ideas and I pick the ones I like and expand on it from there. though I am excited to use adobe firefly and one called kaiber animation tool. since my goal is to create some original animation one day.
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Charline B.R.
I tried ChatGPT and the infamous image generators like Midjourney and StableDiffusion. I must say I definitely see how they are going to become powerfull tools in all graphic or video industry, including video games. I saw Photoshop rise and become a standard, then ZBrush and 3dCoat, next physical rendering engine, and now this... what a time to be alive ! ChatGPT I tried to make it generate some scripts based on small scenarii I wrote just to see how it would compare to mine. It was with the free version, and the poor thing kept confusing some action but still, very impressive on the level of language articulation. Stories and plot twists were still very common and unsurprising though. Then I discussed broadly with it about tragedy, writing, stereotype and plot twist. It was more interesting as it pointed some reference to look at and it definitely helped me. Also I finally found "someone" that know about sci-fi fantasy, a not very know genre :'). I don't care if it's an enhanced robot. I definitely will come back for more ressources like this. Then the image generators. Here I wanted to test how it behave and while super impressive in render ability, it's how this is going to turn brainstorm and various tidy tasks into no brainer that blowed my mind. I used them both to generate random references, also to investigate various ambiant or color super fast, then tested render in different medium... The end result pushed me to buy watercolors again, something I didn't touch since 2006 :). I'm very bad at colors and my environment are dull, this help greatly, I feel a little like a DA that can make important decision ahead of starting production. Now if I had some free time I would train a few to help me spot perspective mistake and common composition mistake (tangent, repetition, similar scale...), also I would train one to write with my handwriting all dialog text so I just have to ink on top, and probably have another one trained on various texture to fill blank where it's needed. But I bet these tools are going to exist before I get my evenings back hehe.
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Liandro
What a time indeed, @Charline B.R.! For better or worse...
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Steve Lenze
Hey Liandro, I have to be honest, I hate all things AI with a passion. It doesn't bother me that other people such as yourself use it. I just don't want anything to do with it myself, to me, art is a human endeavor, not a machines. I get why some people like it to generate reference and so forth, but I think that it cheats you out of using your creative mind. If I can't solve a problem, I work harder and sweat more until I can. That is what makes me grow, not having a machine do it for me. Again, this is just what I think about using it for me. Some people say that using AI is the same as collecting reference on your own and mashing it together. This is not true! When you do it, you are using your creative mind to make the decisions, not relying on a machine to do it for you. Being an artist has been, and is a lifelong pursuit for me, and the last thing I want to do is cheapen that journey by letting a machine do all the heavy lifting for me. Michelangelo did not need a machine to create some of the greatest masterpieces in history. He was able to do that because of the struggle he had to go through to gain the skill he needed. I get why some will take full advantage of this technology, it will be a shortcut to getting what they want in a shorter time. Good for them. Me, I will continue making art the hard way because it makes me feel really good inside :)
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Liandro
Thank you for sharing your insights on this matter, @Steve Lenze! I’ve come to admire your work a lot over this time I’ve been following your interactions with the Proko community, so knowing your thoughts about AI was very important to me. I completely agree that art is a human endeavor. In fact, I think of it as somewhat the “essential trait of humanity”, something that sort of defines our species as such. I can relate to your concerns about the lifetime pursuit of art, the struggles artists go through in their creative processes and how using AI could come to be seen as “a shortcut to achieve results”. I also relate deeply with the good feelings we experience when we’re making art. On the other hand, and this is just my curiosity, I also wonder: what would the great old masters think of such a technology? Leonardo da Vinci, for example, seemed to be fond of machines and quite an inventor himself. As far as history knows, many other Renaissance painters seem to have adhered to “state-of-the-art devices” of their times such as the “camera obscura”. I wonder if these guys would totally reject or if they’d get curious and explore AI if they lived in our contemporary times. I bet there would probably be plenty of mixed feelings and divided opinions. Personally, I wasn’t thrilled by using MidJourney or other image generators. But, for me, it was an unexpectedly interesting experience to be able to envision creative text solutions while interacting with ChatGPT. Not picking the exact punch lines as it generated (which, in my judgement, were honestly not good) and not letting it make the final decisions for me puts this experience in the context of I think of as “using AI as a tool”. To me, it did feel a bit like googling for reference - although, in this case, not visual reference, but textual. However, I understand that my context is very specific and that the AI issue goes much far beyond it being a “tool”. I also sadly believe that our productivity-oriented economy can make the weight shift unfairly towards the use of AI in commercial scenarios. If a profit-based company can achieve results in less time with less money, why won’t they, right? From what I’ve heard in discussions about AI in various areas (not just art), this is what most people are afraid of: losing their jobs. To me, it shows that the core issue is not the tech per se, but how it will be used by the ones that retain economic power and make big scale decisions. I do believe ethical laws and regulations will play a definitive role in turning commercial use of AI a sustainable thing, and I was glad to know that influential artists such as Karla Ortiz, Steven Zapata and Stan are engaged in change-making discussions and initiatives.
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@tompencil
Thanks a lot Steve for sharing your view (and everyone above too). I'm a hobbyist who has been learning about drawing, sculpting, 3D, etc since childhood. I'm always looking for ways to grow and maybe one day create my own book project or little video game project. Before AI came around this learning journey seemed a lot simpler, it would all come down to how much you're willing to invest in terms of time and effort to learn art foundations and creative decision making. Now I feel at times a bit "stuck", doubting whether I would want to pursue the childhood dream of becoming good at drawing or whether I should jump on the AI-train and already just start to focus more on what comes after drawing out ideas (e.g. planning a book or little video game based on the designs generated with AI). But I tend to symphatize with Steve's thoughts, there is just something of a foundational nature in doing the work yourself. If I would rely too much on AI then somehow I would feel like I'm building a house of cards and I loose options for creative decision making. I would lose a dream in some sense, by abandoning the wish of wanting to learn, wanting to master something. Actually, I also discussed this topic briefly with ChatGPT, and actually it seemed to nudge me more into using AI images as some kind of references but still to stay in control of the creative process. So even ChatGPT recommended to stay in control as an artist and use AI images mostly as a source of inspiration, basically treating them on equal footing as other reference materials. Actually now that I write this down, it does clarify things more for me. I'm still in for learning all the foundations of drawing and art myself!
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